A person with a French citizenship from the fourth republic was still a French citizen when the fifth republic was established

The Franks made Paris their capital in the 5th century, so that still ~1100 years earlier

The Germanic people exists in records from the 1st century

Whether you can consider Spain as originating from Hispania of the Roman Empire, which would place it in the BCs, or you are more conservative and say that it doesn't count until after the reconquista from the Umayyad, we're still around the 10th or 11th century

As for Italy, we're again in BCs with the Roman empire

So yes, in comparison to many European countries, the US is a very young country

There's a cultural through line for all these countries, often stretching back thousands of years, which means that they reach further back than the definition of the modern state

Since people with asd-3 can't speak for themselves, others are allowed to speak for them and as a result everyone is essentially allowed to ignore the concerns of people with asd-1 as long as they hide behind representing asd-3

I've argued for asd-3 throughout, so if you respond with a disagreement, the only part you're essentially disagreeing with is my expression of concern about how it will impact asd-1. Pitting me as opposed to treatment of asd-3 is a complete and utter strawman

If this does not at the minimum give pause to consider how societies historically have acted towards people who have not conformed, then I don't think you actually understand the discrimination most people with asd-1 face on a daily basis

You can argue all you want that it's good for people with asd-3. I have agreed with that at every step. Using it to silence genuine concerns from people with asd-1 is kind of proving my point, that our concerns will not be listened to and we could end in a situation where people are pressured to treatment through negative social control

You've shown little to no interest in actually understanding why myself and others have expressed concerns what a "cure" would mean for those of us with a diagnosis, including a complete disregard for the historical precedent of how people with perceived "mental disabilities" have been treated

You've run out of patience because your stance has been that we're wrong and you're right, so you need to set us straight. That's generally not a path to a fruitful conversation

I can however speak to what it's like being autistic and what would have helped me growing up - and it's wasn't medicine

I had my share of meltdowns and they were pretty much exclusively caused by being forced to fit into a rigid school system where my "weirdness" was punished by both teachers and my classmates

What I needed was teachers who had been educated in supporting neurodivergent children, a safe space where I could have gone when I needed to decompress, an academic schedule that was geared towards my needs, and counselling to help me navigate a society that is designed by and for neurotypical people

That my brain is wired differently than it is in a neurotypical person is not a medical condition

What enrages me is when I'm treated as if I'm somehow broken and need fixing. I'm sick and tired of being discriminated against and I'm even more tired of people arguing that it's somehow a super power

My needs and preferences might be different from other people, but I'm still just a person and that's what I'd like to be treated as

In a society where the nuclear family is seen as the highest ideal and the natural state of being, anyone who is not cis and straight will be seen as someone that needs to be changed, which is why homosexuality was considered a disorder

When you have a society where capital is king and a lot of people genuinely believe that your personal productivity is a measure of your worth, anyone who do not function in the resulting "hussle-culture" will be seen as someone that will need to be changed

Yes, being autistic and homosexual are two completely different things, but treating a social construct, such as a disorder classification as natural law is just as idiotic now as it was in 1970

Whether or not people with ASD-1 are more capable of advocating for themselves is completely irrelevant if our concerns can be dismissed outright by anyone claiming to speak for ASD-3

It shows a complete disregard for the discrimination that is already occurring today which affects every verbal autistic person I know, myself included

It's a way to essentially refuse to deal with considerations such as how many people with an ASD-1 diagnosis should we as a society accept being treated, not because they actually want the treatment for themselves, but because they're subjected to social control

As I said in my original post that spawned this thread (and I think in one or two other posts as well), people who are ASD-3 is a case where I would hope we could get better treatment options, but I'm worried about the implications such a "cure" would have for the ASD-1 part of the population

My question about whether we should cure homosexuality is naturally preposterous, exactly because the issues they face are exclusively caused by their surroundings

When the poster I responded cited a high suicide rate among autistic people as support for why a "cure" should be pursued as well as equating it to other "disorders/diseases/illness" in general, I wanted to highlight the absurdity of such a line of reasoning

My main point is that shit is complicated. There are people who need and deserve better treatment options, but ignoring how people who have not conformed to societal expectations have been treated throughout history (and in many cases continues to be treated) is foolish and dangerous

Any statistics done on the subset of autistic people with a diagnosis would therefore be skewed towards the mean of the subset of the general population who are in contact with the psychiatric system

There's a huge number of undiagnosed - estimates range between 90%-98% of people who would fit the criteria for ASD remain undiagnosed. These people remain undiagnosed because they generally live normal lives with jobs, wives, husbands, children, pets, and so on, which provides a support system to help them with the challenges they face

The group of undiagnosed autistic people are however much more likely to be underemployed, i.e. they employed in a much lower position than their education and experience would generally suggest. This is due to the systemic issues they face caused by a lack of accommodations which naturally increases the risk of them having a mental health crisis that puts them in contact with the psychiatric system

Something, something, kettle, something, something, pot

Is the rate of suicide higher among autistic people because they are autistic or because they face discrimination due to the way we've structured society?

One of the reasons why we've seen a large increase in people getting diagnosed with autism in recent years is that society, work environments especially, have become much more demanding. Someone who, 30 years ago, would have been able to function at a high level at home and at work would like struggle much more today

This is not the only reason for the increase in diagnoses, but it's definitely a part of it

The question is then; are these increased demands an inevitability, a law of nature if you will, or is it something we can choose to change?

This is what I mean when I say that society get the mental disorders it creates

There is also a significant higher rate of suicide for the homosexual part of the population compared to the heterosexual part, so again I have to ask: should we "cure" homosexuality?

I have said throughout the thread that I'm conflicted about a "cure". I do believe it could help some people immensely, but for many more people what would help more is a kinder and more compassionate society, where the default assumption isn't that if autistic people don't want to burn out, then they're the ones who'll have to be "fixed"

People look at me weird when I say that I have never had it as good as I did during COVID lockdowns, but it was amazing that my entire world was my apartment and I didn't have to deal with anything besides what was within those four walls

I agree with your distinction/example about meds. If there was something that could improve the things I struggle with such as not being able to recognise faces, interpret facial expressions, etc then I'd be very happy to take it

Unfortunately I think these things are intrinsically interconnected with the parts of being autistic I love

Anyway - thanks so much for sharing your perspective and experience. I really appreciated hearing about it

Here is a list of things that could also be done:

- Offer better protection to parents of autistic children in relation to work

- Stop trying to "normalise" autistic children in the school system, which leads to severe stress in the children

- Provide after-school activities and safe-spaces for autistic children to process and decompress

Anecdotally I have yet to meet any parents of autistic people who fit the narrative you provide. I have however met plenty of parents of neurotypical children who do

I am very lucky to be in a country where my workplace is required to provide "reasonable accomodations" for me. There's still a long way to go to actually address a lot of the problems that myself and other autistic people have to deal with on a daily basis

The important point for me is that I can see what that world would look like and it doesn't depend on "fixing" me

First of all, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you're struggling with you self-worth because of your symptoms

I don't know you or your story, so I'm not going to assume that my experience is comparable to yours. This is why I'm conflicted about whether I would want a "cure"

My hesitancy against wanting one is based solely on my own life experience. I was diagnosed as an adult and I had struggled with my self-worth and had been chronically depressed since I was a child. If someone had offered me a "cure" so I could fit in at that point, I'd probably have taken it

The thing is that after I learned I was autistic, I could start to recognise that the people who over the years had scolded, yelled, and made fun of me; those people were the ones in the wrong. I was lucky enough to be in a position where I could make changes in my life that accommodate my specific needs, which in turn has made it possible for me to pursue the things that I find meaningful

I don't want a society where we make autistic people believe that they are broken because of small-minded, inconsiderate bigots. After they've fixed their hearts we can talk about "fixing" my brain

The main issue I see with this line of thinking is that there is an underlying/implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being autistic

Society has the mental disorders it creates, i.e. autism is only viewed as a disorder because it doesn't fit into the societal structures we have built

Not long ago being gay was considered a mental disorder - should we try to find a cure for homosexuality?

Most neurotypical people who I see argue for "a cure" want one because they don't want a society where there is room for people who experience the world in a different way and therefore have different views than themselves

Said more plainly, they're bigots and they have no qualms berating, scolding, and making fun of an autistic person until said person believes they are actually in need of fixing. If someone who faces discrimination and bullying every day asked to be "cured", are they actually making an informed choice or are they being forced by society?

There is nothing wrong with being autistic and it shouldn't be necessary for myself and other autistic people to justify our existence based on things like economic output

As I pointed out in my original post, I am conflicted about the potential for a "cure". For asd-3 it could potentially be revolutionary in terms of quality of life, but with the discrimination I myself experience and what I hear from other autistic people, not to mention the political situation around the world, I do not trust that this will actually be used to help us. It would be used to control us because other people somehow believe we're broken

Every day is challenging because I have to manage my energy, mask in social situations and at work, etc

On the other hand, I like who I am and I'm also very good at what I do because my brain is structured the way it is. I can imagine a society that is structured in a way, where I don't need the accommodations I'm currently dependent on

If the negative impacts I'm experiencing are a consequence of the how we've structured our society, then I don't think it's autistic people who need to change to fit in

Of course there are much more severe cases than me where autistic people need much more support and have severe learning disabilities, where it could be a huge improvement to quality of life

If it was possible to fully trust that a hypothetical "cure" would only be used in these severe cases, I might be excited about a potential breakthrough, but historically this unfortunately haven't been the case

Luckily that has never happened /s