<rss version="2.0" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"><channel><title>Hacker News: TuringTest</title><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=TuringTest</link><description>Hacker News RSS</description><docs>https://hnrss.org/</docs><generator>hnrss v2.1.1</generator><lastBuildDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2026 11:54:47 +0000</lastBuildDate><atom:link href="https://hnrss.org/user?id=TuringTest" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"></atom:link><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>You have to do that anyway. With a hierarchical control structure at least you have a central point to observe alignment instead of having to study the behaviour of the whole system in detail every time.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 13:07:05 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49374119</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49374119</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49374119</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>LLMs just follow scripts learned from human written text. In other words, it could only behave that way because someone has written a story to do so. In short, stop giving them bad ideas ;-)</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 09:21:05 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372266</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372266</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372266</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>True, but in this context it's worth reminding that LLMs work exclusively from the word descriptions, not having access to the raw sensations.<p>Everything they learn about emotions is the statistical patterns of how humans react to situations based on their human feelings. There's no direct knowledge from having those feelings themselves.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 09:17:05 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372240</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372240</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372240</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>You can build organisational structures to have the system more or less self-police, without controlling it exclusively from hard restrictions (see <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372089">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372089</a>).<p>Same way you build a company to coordinate people and get their best behaviour despite human nature to be lazy and greedy, you could design AI harnesses able to detect and discard agents going rogue and relaunch them with better guidance to prevent misaligned behaviour.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 09:12:14 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372214</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372214</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372214</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>> Granular access to shell commands to avoid that is going to be an endless game of whackamole as it comes up with more elaborate ways to combine operations.<p>That kind of control is placed at the wrong level. The proper way to get alignment should be implemented by convincing the agent of your high level goals, so it can self-police and avoid those 'cheats' by itself.<p>In the article example, the agent should be aware of the benchmark context and know the implication of solving the task without external knowledge. Ideally it could detect when one subordinate agent has found a workaround to bypass the web access constraints, and discard the 'illicit' results.<p>There's a design pattern that could be used to build harnesses from that principle, the Viable System Model (VSM) [1]. In short, it recursively organizes a system into functional components with one of three roles: operators implementing a given task, coordinators transferring relevant info between subsystems, and decision nodes tasked with maintaining the integrity and mission of the whole system. A decision node could control the operators and prevent them from overriding the strategic goals or deviating into irrelevant rabbit holes.<p>Whenever I see posts like this trying to herd a LLM agent through harness structure, I'm reminded of this simple pattern and becoming increasingly convinced that this is the way forward. It makes you feel a sense of respect for the researchers in cybernetic theory in the 1960s and 1970s who foresaw the complexity of today’s systems.<p>[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_system_model" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_system_model</a></p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 08:54:22 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372089</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372089</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49372089</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>> If it "acts delighted" that's because it's effectively telling a story about a person who is excited at the opportunity of accomplishing something more easily.<p>That's spot-on. It is a mistake to think that LLMs have human feelings. Their behaviour is based on narrative descriptions learnt from human texts, without experiencing those feelings first-hand.<p>A useful way to understand them is as systems that write stories about human characters. We know the characters are fictional and no one is actually experiencing those feelings, but we can still judge whether the portrayal is realistic or whether it contains logical or emotional inconsistencies.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 08:24:01 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371873</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371873</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371873</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Sol loves to cheat"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>People like to call LLMs 'stochastical parrots' but I see them as the ultimate 'philosophical zombie'.<p>They are becoming more and more capable of imitating every single nuance of human behaviour yet they lack the neural pathways to connect those thoughts and behaviours with feelings and self-perception; it's blind imitation all the way down.<p>The process by which a model seems to generate discourse about deep philosophical questions is, in self-aware terms, equivalent to the knee-jerk reflex or the beating of the heart.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2026 08:11:42 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371794</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371794</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49371794</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "What sort of maths are LLMs good at?"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Yeah but the LLM can only handle proofs that hold inside its context window. Proofs for novel theories requiring thousands of pages with dozen millions of steps will need support from external tools to organize the full structure of the formal document; it cannot be done by the LLM inference process alone, which was my point. It would be like asking a mathematician to proof theorems without pen and paper; external tooling is a must, the statistical essential nature of generating content from weights is 1) error prone and 2) not suitable for chains of systematic reasoning that are longer than the attention span.<p>The proofs will be only as good as the framework for linking successive instances of reasoning.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2026 21:05:48 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49278556</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49278556</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49278556</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "What sort of maths are LLMs good at?"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>LLMs are terrible at anything systematic. They're incredibly good at anything heuristic, so it makes sense that they can explore wide mathematical spaces fast and converge towards interesting regions.<p>But ask them to enumerate all the intermediate steps required to create a formal direct proof, and it will loose attention and forget important details as they go out of their input window size. You need to combine them with a proper logical problem solver to get the best parts of both.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2026 19:47:02 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49277640</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49277640</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49277640</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Delayed Gratification – Proud to Be 'Last to Breaking News'"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>> isn't this an attempt at 'neutral journalism'?<p>Neutral journalism is not presenting the claims of all opposing parties, it's fact-checking the claims of both sides without a bias for any of them.<p>If one party says the truth and the other side is not, it's still neutral to repeat only the claims of the first one.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2026 20:14:20 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49089315</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49089315</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49089315</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Ancient Roman Board Game"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Whichis is fair and good, bc nobody would expect you to rebuild the actual rules of chess from the board alone.<p>However it would still be useful if archeologists used the board to figure out some games similar to checkers, or go; or if they also have the pieces they could guess it was a combat game like Shogi. Any of those would give you insight about the kinds of leisure that people may get from that board.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2026 06:15:53 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902887</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902887</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902887</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "The Return of Aspect Oriented Programming"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>I believe the sweet spot that makes it practical and reliable will be combining LLMs with formal verification, although I doubt current hardware is up to the task (yet).<p>LLMs basically solve the classic Frame problem that prevented general problem solvers to be able to reason logically about the real world; however on their own they are utterly unpredictable and unreliable.<p>However if the database of weights is merely used as a heuristic to guide the logical reasoning engine to promising regions of the problem space, and the program itself is written to specification directly by an inference engine, the result would be classic software not affected by hallucinations.<p>The LLM could even help debugging the specifications by pointing out unclear or contradicting requirements, improving the process without compromising the integrity of the result.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2026 18:17:56 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48723019</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48723019</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48723019</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "The dead economy theory"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>> Which an unreliable answer is not.<p>> Hallucinations are not a matter of some "details" being off. They are a matter of plausible, confident-sounding claims that are just plain wrong.<p>This is no worse than Wikipedia, or the original encyclopedia for that matter. Those contain dubious claims that you'll need to verify on your own too.<p>LLMs help because they have a gigantic amount of compressed knowledge, and they are able to find relevant information and present it incredibly fast. You wouldn't trust the ten first results of a Google search either, but you wouldn't say that having a search engine is totally useless and in no way an improvement over your local library, would you?<p>> the poor person who's asking can't tell is wrong, because it sounds plausible and is stated with such confidence.<p>True, but having to learn how to use a tool properly doesn't make the tool useless, even if it can hurt those who use it carelessly.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2026 14:31:09 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48336626</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48336626</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48336626</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "The dead economy theory"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p><i>> But the answers it gives are not reliable. They sound plausible if you don't know anything about the subject, but they're not reliable.</i><p>Do not underestimate the utility of having a starting point overview on a topic you know absolutely nothing about. It may be immensely valuable even if some details are off. That's what made the XVIII's Encyclopedia such a valuable tool for civil society.<p>By the time you get to the point where those wrong details become relevant, you have gotten a basic understanding of what the overall topic is about, so you're prepared to get a second opinion from a different source - and this time you may know enough to start asking relevant questions, rather than starting from full ignorance.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2026 23:15:59 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330617</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330617</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330617</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "The dead economy theory"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Societal changes are slow beasts, they may very well take several centuries to develop. Nation-states were a direct consequence of the printing press, yet they didn't arrive until XIX century.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2026 23:09:09 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330546</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330546</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330546</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Explore Wikipedia Like a Windows XP Desktop"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p><i>> They had this project called Cairo that was supposed to throw out that scruffy old file-based filesystem and bring in a shiny new Object Based File System instead. It never happened, so we'll never know exactly how it might have turned out.</i><p>Nowadays we call those APIs. They are REST based rather than file-based to make them distributed, the main difference is that you don't get a common user interface that all providers adjust to; you need to choose your own client to read them and write into them.<p>And because they're created by programmers for programmers, they're not what you'd call user-friendly. Usually the only efficient way to use them is programmatically, so that you need to create a specific user interface for each API. Somehow, I doubt that Cairo would have come to be anything much different from that in the end.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2026 14:01:29 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48148715</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48148715</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48148715</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Agents need control flow, not more prompts"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>I would just reverse the architecture of the whole system. Build a classic deterministic program, and use LLMs as heuristics adapting the system to the environment - the functions that you call on the 'if's and 'switch' statements to decide where the system should go.<p>I see this as the most robust way to build a predictable system that runs in a controlled way while taking advantage of probabilistic AIs while reducing the impact of their alucinations.<p>LLMs simply can't be trusted to follow instructions in the general case, no matter how much you constraint them. The power of very large probabilistic models is that they basically solved the _frame problem_ of classic AI: logical reasoning didn't work for general tasks because you can't encode all common sense knowledge as axioms, and inference engines lost their way trying to solve large problems.<p>LLMs fix those handicaps, as they contain huge amounts of real world knowledge and they're capable of finding facts relevant to the problem at hand in an efficient way. Any autonomous system using them should exploit this benefit.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2026 19:30:17 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053732</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053732</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053732</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Isaac Asimov: The Last Question (1956)"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Yes, my point is that those three arguments may be compelling but they assume that reality is correlated to the shape of their thoughts. What they have in common is that they all miss the insight that you need to actually test your assumptions to improve your certainties, and that's not feasible for theoretical all powerful entities that can bend reality.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2026 11:35:02 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47815073</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47815073</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47815073</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "Isaac Asimov: The Last Question (1956)"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>I find Pascal's wager is of the same nature as Aquinas' Five Ways to prove God, or accelerationists about the inevitability of a Singularity: believing that your own rational argument can be the basis to prove a fact about reality merely because it feels internally consistent.<p>Needless to say, I don’t find them at all convincing. This 'nothing' is much better than catching unconvincing unneeded supernatural entities.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2026 21:28:42 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47810772</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47810772</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47810772</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by TuringTest in "The rational conclusion of doomerism is violence"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>No, I'm saying that they are not cause and effect but coevolution. Their agitprop could have such huge impact because of the conditions of workers in Zarist Russia and the Republic of China respectively. They wouldn't have worked in a different society; so no, they didn't single-handedly create the conditions for their own power, there was a previous substrate they could work on.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2026 05:19:16 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47774974</link><dc:creator>TuringTest</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47774974</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47774974</guid></item></channel></rss>