<rss version="2.0" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"><channel><title>Hacker News: mikepfrank</title><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=mikepfrank</link><description>Hacker News RSS</description><docs>https://hnrss.org/</docs><generator>hnrss v2.1.1</generator><lastBuildDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2026 05:16:54 +0000</lastBuildDate><atom:link href="https://hnrss.org/user?id=mikepfrank" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"></atom:link><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing with mechanical links and pivots"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>It's impossible to avoid incurring some losses at finite speed, but as far as I know there is nothing fundamental preventing one from approaching reversible operation when operating at a sufficiently slow (but nonzero) speed.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2025 23:24:11 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851842</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851842</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851842</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing with mechanical links and pivots"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Sagawa was mistaken in this article; he failed to appreciate the role of mutual information in computing, which is the proper basis for understanding Landauer's principle. I discussed this in <a href="https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/23/6/701" rel="nofollow">https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/23/6/701</a>.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2025 23:21:26 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851821</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851821</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851821</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing with mechanical links and pivots"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Thanks for the shout-out, Kragen!<p>A more complete resource for finding my work count be found at <a href="https://revcomp.info" rel="nofollow">https://revcomp.info</a>.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2025 23:16:47 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851785</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851785</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43851785</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Those can all be made reversible as well. :)</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2025 20:38:37 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42807821</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42807821</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42807821</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>I believe it helps, because we don't have to reduce the bit energy as much to operate efficiently. But this would need to be studied in more detail.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:44:33 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42713306</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42713306</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42713306</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>I have concerns about density & cost for both photonic & superconductive computing. Not sure what one can do with quantum Hall effect.<p>Regarding long-term returns, my view is that reversible computing is really the only way forward for continuing to radically improve the energy efficiency of digital compute, whereas conventional (non-reversible) digital tech will plateau within about a decade. Because of this, within two decades, nearly all digital compute will need to be reversible.<p>Regarding bypassing the Landauer limit, theoretically yes, reversible computing can do this, but not by thermally cooling anything really, but rather by avoiding the conversion of known bits to entropy (and their energy to heat) in the first place. This must be done by "decomputing" the known bits, which is a fundamentally different process from just erasing them obliviously (without reference to the known value).<p>For the quantum case, I haven't closely studied the result in the second paper you cited, but it sounds possible.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Wed, 15 Jan 2025 00:08:29 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705714</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705714</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705714</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Yeah, 2LAL (and its successor S2LAL) uses a very strict switching discipline to achieve truly, fully adiabatic switching. I haven't studied PFAL carefully but I doubt it's as good as 2LAL even in its more-adiabatic version.<p>For a relatively up-to-date tutorial on what we believe is the "right" way to do adiabatic logic (i.e., capable of far more efficiency than competing adiabatic logic families from other research groups), see the below talk which I gave at UTK in 2021. We really do find in our simulations that we can achieve 4 or more orders of magnitude of energy savings in our logic compared to conventional, given ideal waveforms and power-clock delivery. (But of course, the whole challenge in actually getting close to that in practice is doing the resonant energy recovery efficiently enough.)<p><a href="https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2022/06/UKy-talkSAND-v2.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2022/06/UKy-tal...</a>
<a href="https://tinyurl.com/Frank-UKy-2021" rel="nofollow">https://tinyurl.com/Frank-UKy-2021</a><p>The simulation results were first presented (in an invited talk to the SRC Decadal Plan committee) a little later that year in this talk (no video of that one, unfortunately):<p><a href="https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2022/06/SRC-talk-final-public-post-v3.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2022/06/SRC-tal...</a><p>However, the ComET talk I linked earlier in the thread does review that result also, and has video.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 14 Jan 2025 23:32:46 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705420</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705420</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42705420</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>It's been a while since I looked at it, but I believe PFAL is one of the not-fully-adiabatic techniques that I have a lot of critiques of.<p>There have been studies showing that a truly, fully adiabatic technique in the sense I'm talking about (2LAL was the one they checked) does about 10x better than any of the other "adiabatic" techniques. In particular, 2LAL does a lot better than PFAL.<p>> reversibility isn't actually necessary<p>That isn't true in the sense of "reversible" that I use. Look at the structure of the word -- reverse-able. <i>Able</i> to be reversed. It isn't essential that the very same computation that computed some given data is actually applied in reverse, only that no information is obliviously discarded, implying that the computation always <i>could</i> be reversed. Unwanted information still needs to be decomputed, but in general, it's quite possible to de-compute garbage data using a different process than the reverse of the process that computed it. In fact, this is frequently done in practice in typical pipelined reversible logic styles. But they still count as reversible even though the forwards and reverse computations aren't identical.
So, I think we agree here and it's just a question of terminology.<p>Lower bounds on clock speed are indeed important; generally this arises in the form of maximum latency constraints. Fortunately, many workloads today (such as AI) are limited more by bandwidth/throughput than by latency.<p>I'd be interested to know if you can get energy savings factors on the order of 100x or 1000x with the capacitive switching techniques you're looking at. So far, I haven't seen that that's possible. Of course, we have a long way to go to prove out those kinds of numbers in practice using resonant charge transfer as well. Cheers...</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 14 Jan 2025 20:50:46 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42703661</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42703661</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42703661</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>There indeed has been research on reversible adiabatic logic in superconducting electronics. But superconducting electronics has a whole host of issues of its own, such as low density and a requirement for ultra-low temperatures.<p>When I was at Sandia we also had a project exploring ballistic reversible computation (as opposed to adiabatic) in superconducting electronics. We got as far as confirming to our satisfaction that it is possible, but this line of work is a lot farther from major commercial applications than the adiabatic CMOS work.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 14 Jan 2025 19:44:01 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702733</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702733</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702733</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible computing escapes the lab"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Hi, someone pointed me at your comment, so I thought I'd reply.<p>First, the circuit techniques that aren't reversible aren't truly, fully adiabatic either -- they're only quasi-adiabatic. In fact, if you strictly follow the switching rules required for fully adiabatic operation, then (ignoring leakage) you <i>cannot</i> erase information -- none of the allowed operations achieve that.<p>Second, to say reversible operation "only saves an extra 20%" over quasi-adiabatic techniques is misleading. Suppose a given quasi-adiabatic technique saves 79% of the energy, and a fully adiabatic, reversible version saves you "an extra 20%" -- well, then now that's 99%. But, if you're dissipating 1% of the energy of a conventional circuit, and the quasi-adiabatic technique is dissipating 21%, that's 21x more energy efficient! And so you can achieve 21x greater performance within a given power budget.<p>Next, to say "resistive losses dominate the losses" is also misleading. The resistive losses scale down arbitrarily as the transition time is increased. We can actually operate adiabatic circuits all the way down to the regime where resistive losses are about as low as the losses due to leakage. The max energy savings factor is on the order of the square root of the on/off ratio of the devices.<p>Regarding "adiabatic circuits can typically only provide an order of magnitude power savings" -- this isn't true for reversible CMOS! Also, "power" is not even the right number to look at -- you want to look at power per unit performance, or in other words energy per operation. Reducing operating frequency reduces the power of conventional CMOS, but does not directly reduce energy per operation or improve energy efficiency. (It can allow you to indirectly reduce it though, by using a lower switching voltage.)<p>You are correct that adiabatic circuits can benefit from frequency scaling more than traditional CMOS -- since lowering the frequency actually directly lowers energy dissipation per operation in adiabatic circuits. The specific 4000x number (which includes some benefits from scaling) comes from the analysis outlined in this talk -- see links below - but we have also confirmed energy savings of about this magnitude in detailed (Cadence/Spectre) simulations of test circuits in various processes. Of course, in practice the energy savings is limited by the resonator Q value. And a switched-capacitor design (like a stepped voltage supply) would do much worse, due to the energy required to control the switches.<p><a href="https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2023/11/Comet23-slides_SAND.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/210/2023/11/Comet23...</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vALCJJs9Dtw" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vALCJJs9Dtw</a><p>Happy to answer any questions.</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Tue, 14 Jan 2025 19:33:06 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702555</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702555</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42702555</guid></item><item><title><![CDATA[New comment by mikepfrank in "Reversible Computing"]]></title><description><![CDATA[
<p>Thanks for the plug! :D</p>
]]></description><pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2021 08:21:09 +0000</pubDate><link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300650</link><dc:creator>mikepfrank</dc:creator><comments>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300650</comments><guid isPermaLink="false">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300650</guid></item></channel></rss>