Fair point. That example comes from my research, but trying to anonymize it somewhat I ended up messing it up completely. I ack it doesn't make sense as is. And saying that a job in tech won't be enough to rent a place on your own was stupid too.

> Why US companies in EU have to pay premium -- because they try to behave like in US and pay premium to their delusions of grandeur.

From my perspective they pay more because they actually value skilled employees. (Shocking, isn't it? US companies valuing their people more than European companies do). And hiring the best, in turn, lets them outcompete European business, make more money and compensate their people better -- on and on it goes.

> they try to behave like in US

In reality, save for a rare exception, they treat their employees nicely in both US and EU.

Or at least they used to before we entered the current layoffs era -- but people say big Berlin tech companies have become just as toxic (DeliveryHero, Zalando...). So it doesn't look like European companies are stopped from being toxic by labor law or better ethics.

> Why it's lower in general -- because the cost of living is lower

That's not the whole story though. Obviously comparing absolute numbers is a fool's errand. But the purchasing power is significantly lower too. And, like, OK, maybe matching US salaries purchasing power isn't realistic -- but my feeling is current EU comps are below a fair level. Companies pay that simply because they can get away with it.

> Grind some in US (if you are of acceptable skin color for them), then go and chill here once you are done with the grind.

That's not a bad idea at all. I'm good though. Found my way and am doing fine for now and, hopefully, long-term too.

It just pains me to watch so much wasted potential. Yeah, it's none of my business and it's dumb that a non-EU citizen even has strong opinions about this stuff. But EU could do so much better if only it got its shit together instead of this pathetic "but we got public transport" style coping.

I let my frustration with European comp levels take the best of me. My bad.

Well, my feelings are hurt by seeing so many talented engineers getting compensated so badly.

How come that for all the signing and dancing about worker rights protections when push comes to shove it's US companies EU offices that are ready to pay their employees fairly? What kind of hypocrisy from EU companies is that?

If you think EU companies just cannot afford to pay that much, just compare what Siemens pays to the same level SWE in EU and US. (Have no relation to Siemens whatsoever, just an example).

That said, I was considering relocating to Germany and researching the country as best I could. I do prefer European lifestyle, but the salaries are just a non-starter.

You can easily check the numbers I give though. Any specific mistakes there?

Btw, why are you so defensive about the fact comp is so low in Europe?

> your math is not mathing really (what 20% downpayment?).

> what 20% downpayment?

20% downpayment is generally expected by German banks if you want to take out a mortgage. Don't take my word for it, check yourself.

500K Eur x 0.2 / (12 * 1K Eur) = 8.3 years.

You implied that saving 1K a month is some absurd goal. I'm trying to show that's tablestakes if you hope to ever own a home.

Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank?

How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be?

If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment.

Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers.

Oh, and all these news reports saying how young Europeans have to live with their parents until their thirties?

Fair point.

I just realized I was replying from the perspective of attracting talent which obviously different from keeping it.

Glad things worked out for you. Staying close to loved ones and friends sure wins over pursuing money, as long as the situation is not outright dire.

I'm not American, the question was why Europe can't keep talent ("talent" doesn't really include me).

Well, the compensation is just depressing. And as that person from Ireland pointed out, all the talk about worker protections is barely more than fairy tales (maybe not in the Netherlands, idk).

Were we looking at 120 instead of 80, deciding between Europe's quality of life and pursuing career and money in the US would a real tough dilemma. With 80 just enough to pay rent and for groceries... Saving a thousand a month (a wild sum!) gets you to a 20% downpayment on a 500K home in just 8 years...

Well, maybe things are better than I imagine. Would you be comfortable sharing a few things? Thanks!

What're your monthly expenses? After rent, that is. Just groceries, a mobile plan, some clothes averaged over the year, etc.

Do you have an emergency fund? If so, what's the ballpark sum?

Are you going to be able to still pay rent when you retire?

Are you saving for a downpayment?

Do you feel financial secure enough to star a family?

Can you afford to visit some far-away place with beautiful nature once a year?

Can you afford to go... idk, skiing? Can you afford all the gear needed to do that and a few lessons?

Can you buy a gaming PC with something like rtx 5070 or so? Not into gaming? Can you afford a homelab made up of a few used PCs and a few Raspberry Pies to play around with Kubernetes or whatnot?

So, I don't live in Germany but I tried to look into how things work there a little deeper.

It seems to have a lot in common with what you describe about Ireland actually.

Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself.

> you never cook yourself?

I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car?

Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary.

The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much.

Here're some rough current salaries/cost of living numbers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46524452

Sharing an apartment while in college is OK, even fun in my book.

We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?)

Go check out, say, Berlin salaries on levels.fyi or glassdoor or wherever you prefer and filter out US companies.

Given these conditions, 80000 euro is an amazing salary. Your take home is going to be around 46400 or 3860 euro monthly.

Then head to immoscout24 and check rent prices in Berlin. Let me spoil it a little, a two-bedroom, two-bathroom 65-80 square meters apartment is starting from 1500 euro or so plus 200-300 euro for heating plus the rest of utilities. Or 2000 euro monthly in total.

So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin.

Don't really have anything to back up what I'm about to say except a gut feeling. But Europe actually has got plenty of talent. European business just doesn't seem to value that or have ideas what to do with it.

Do you have anything specific in mind? Maybe European law if friendlier to employees on avarege. But in tech US companies seem to offer similar if not better conditions. E.g., Amazon is widely considered an employer straight from hell, and yet they offer 3 monthly salaries when letting an engineer go -- that's more than a European employees typically gets.

On the other hand, both layoffs and long-hours aren't unheard of in, say, Getmany.