But why does engaging with negative valence, planning, and weighing actions against other interests require subjective experience? That sounds simply like a mathematical function (perhaps using our own past experiences as inputs). Reinforcement Learning is a great counterexample here: AI systems weigh negative valence and execute long-term plans without any qualia.

If thermoregulation is too "reflexive" for you, consider that there are many examples in which humans are able to perform very complex tasks in the absence of qualia. Consider, for instance, the phenomena of highway hypnosis, blindsight or sleepwalking - humans can do incredibly complicated things without qualia.

> This isn't an example of coherent behavior in the sense being used here. The issue is one of voluntary behavior being coherently executed as to achieve some goal without undermining itself.

This argument is circular. The original claim is that behaving coherently in a a complex environment requires consciousness. By shifting the goalposts to say that only voluntary behaviors qualify, you are begging the question. The entire notion of "voluntary" implies conscious intent, so your argument has become "consciously willed behaviors require consciousness".

But this isn't true! It has been repeatedly shown that patients without inner brain function react to stimuli (such as being pinched or pricked with a needle) by recoiling from the pain, as do babies with no experience of pain. So qualia and consciousness seem like they have nothing to do with ensuring coherent behavior. To put this another way, your experiences and interactions with the world could be sufficient to associate the stove with danger, but how does that explain why the experience of touching the stove has qualia, as opposed to simply the pain-reaction of a patient without inner brain function or a baby?

Another counterargument is that our brains carry out lots of "coherent" functions "in the dark". Consider, for example, thermoregulation; most of the time, there is no conscious experience associated with it, but yet it is happening constantly and coherently.

Let's simplify it further: to use a famous example, do you believe that a thermostat is conscious? After all, a theremostat is able to coherently regulate its temperature over time in response to changes in its environment.

Why would movement towards a goal be incoherent if it happened "in the dark"? Our brains perform many critical functions "in the dark" (and do so coherently) which do not rise to the level of consciousness.

Comments URL: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47794543

Points: 6

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Except for literally anytime you’re collaborating with anyone, ever? I can’t even begin to imagine working on a project where folks just use whatever python version their OS happens to ship with. Do you also just ship the latest version of whatever container because most of the time nothing has changed?

Also, meta gripe: this article felt like a total bait-and-switch in that it only became clear that it was promoting a product right at the end.

HNSW indices are big. Let's suppose I have an HNSW index which fits in a few hundred gigabytes of memory, or perhaps a few terabytes. How do I reasonably rebuild this using maintenance_work_mem? Double the size of my database for a week? What about the knock-on impacts on the performance for the rest of my database-stuff - presumably I'm relying on this memory for shared_buffers and caching? This seems like the type of workload that is being discussed here, not a toy 20GB index or something.

> You use REINDEX CONCURRENTLY.

Even with a bunch of worker processes, how do I do this within a reasonable timeframe?

> How do you think a B+tree gets updated?

Sure, the computational complexity of insertion into an HNSW index is sublinear, the constant factors are significant and do actually add up. That being said, I do find this the weakest of the author's arguments.

On the iterative scan side, how do you prevent this from becoming too computationally intensive with a restrictive pre-filter, or simply not working at all? We use Vespa, which means effectively doing a map-reduce across all of our nodes; the effective number of graph traversals to do is smaller, and the computational burden mostly involves scanning posting lists on a per-node basis. I imagine to do something similar in postgres, you'd need sharded tables, and complicated application logic to control what you're actually searching.

How do you deal with re-indexing and/or denormalizing metadata for filtering? Do you simply accept that it'll take hours or days?

I agree with you, however, that vector databases are not a panacea (although they do remove a huge amount of devops work, which is worth a lot!). Vespa supports filtering across parent-child relationships (like a relational database) which means we don't have to reindex a trillion things every time we want to add a new type of filter, which with a previous vector database vendor we used took us almost a week.